the government decided under ronald reagan at first, give them a tax credit. in other words, send them a tax -- >> incentivize them to work. >> ryan knows this but he's just pandering to the worst instincts of his audience. >> martin, i don't know how -- or what goes through someone like -- the head of someone like paul ryan where he isn't going to accept the framework of that proposition, which has been so damaging. really a sensible candidate wouldn't try and accept the premise of the question. he'd try and explain it. he'd say, this is where we want to move the country. not about work, but it's been so damaging to sort of accept it and engage in it and embrace it, it is such a losing proposition. even the research from his own campaign must tell him that. >> john, you have previously remarked to me on the fact you regard paul ryan as a smart man. a man that understands numbers. that 47% tape has been out there for almost three weeks and he's making that kind of comment yesterday. is he really that smart? >> well, he's very smart on the budget numbers, but h